Meeting the
Vietnamese Mig pilots
I’m cruising along at 37,000
feet some place over
Arizona. I’m headed back to
Port Orange after a
fantastic adventure in San
Diego with some of my old
fighter squadron friends and
others from my days at NAS
Miramar. I’ve decided to
write a little recap of the
event for a bunch of friends
with different backgrounds
so the language will vary
for the benefit of those who
have combat or aviation
experience and others who
don’t. The “facts” I’m
reporting are subject to my
diminished hearing and my
failing memory.
About 8-10 months ago a
retired Marine colonel named
Charlie Tutt assembled a
group of aviators to go to
Hanoi, Vietnam, to meet with
some Mig pilots from the
war. They went, had a great
time, and decided to invite
the Mig drivers to come to
the USA. The Mig drivers
accepted the invitation and
arrived in San Diego on
September 20th.
Nine American former pilots
and one RIO hosted the
meeting with thirteen
Vietnamese pilots. The
Americans went out on the
internet and invited any/all
of us who had tangled with
Migs during the war, or who
were just interested in it,
to attend the meeting both
to get good looks at the Mig
pilots “up close and
personal” and to add to the
stories. I went. There were
about 25—30 American former
aviators in all. Among the
Mig pilots were guys who had
flown the Mig-17, the 19 and
the 21, and among them were
three retired Lt Generals.
Two of the Lt Gens were aces
with six kills each, and the
other one had four. Most of
the other ten pilots had
American kills. Among the
Americans were navy F-4
pilots and RIOs, USAF F-4
pilots and WSOs, F-105
pilots, and two navy guys
who’d flown the A-1 and A-4.
Our navy Phantom crew who
made ace, Randy Duke
Cunningham and his RIO,
Willy Driscoll, were there.
Six American former POWs
were there too, four Air
Force and two navy. My dear
friend Bob Jeffery was
there. Bob was a USAF F-4
pilot who got smoked on his
FIRST mission on December
10, 1965, and spent the next
7 & 1/2 years in Hanoi. Some
of the Viets brought their
wives as there were five or
six women there too.
The event opened with a
meeting in the conference
room of the Holiday Inn
Bayside at 0830 on Thursday
the 21st. A rostrum was
set-up in the front of the
room with a microphone and
the American and Vietnamese
flags properly displayed.
There were several cloth
covered round tables which
seated ten each situated all
around the room, each with
note pads and pens at place.
There were coffee and
ice-water urns in the rear
of the room. The Vietnamese
pilots and American crews
mixed and schmoozed the
first half-hour or so until
the meeting was formally
opened by Charlie Tutt who
sort of MC’d the whole day.
The idea was for the pilots
who had actually engaged
each other in the air to
form panels to discuss what
happened then to brief all
of us on the events after
they got all their
lies….uh….er….facts
straight. Several were able
to identify each other so
they met at the two front
tables and with the aid of
interpreters got their
stories and events synced
up. After about an hour they
went to the rostrum and told
their stories by one pilot
talking a few minutes then
the interpreter doing her
work, then the other pilot
taking his turn talking with
the interpreter doing her
work again. The first
interpreter was a woman who
had to interpret a
stranger-than-usual southern
Vietnamese dialect into a
northern dialect so the
other interpreter could
understand before
translating it into
English. Needless to say,
that process was laborious
and we lost a lot of the
meaning, sentiment and
emotion while it took
place. One interesting
thing though, was a long
session with 82 year old
Sen.Col. Nguyễn Văn Bảy, the
most highly decorated
Vietnamese Mig-17 pilot. He
got 7 kills and became “a
national treasure” so Ho Chi
Minh pulled him out of
combat and limited him to
instructing for the next few
years. Van Bay was the
spittin’ image of Ho Chi
Minh himself, incidentally…
After an hour and a half
lunch break we had a new
interpreter who did a much
better job and everybody
seemed to enjoy the stories
much more. That interpreter
was a former Mig-21 pilot,
now airline Captain Nguyen
Nam Lien who flies 787
Dreamliners for Vietnam
Airlines. Before the
afternoon session began I
introduced myself to him and
I was startled to hear him
say “Oh yes, I know you, we
have met before”. I asked
him when-where-and how and
he said he’d been the AirBus
pilot who flew me and
“Jeremy” Morris from Hong
Kong to Hanoi back in
2000—-17 years earlier— when
Jerry and I went over there
trying to meet-up with the
guy who Jerry and I helped
bag back in 1967. That guy
is the infamous (now retired
Lt General) Mai van Cuong…one
of Vietnam’s three pilots
tied for 2nd leading ace of
the war. Jerry and I had
stopped to chat with Lien as
we were getting off the
AirBus in Hanoi and Lien
remembered us by name! Lien
had written a book in
Vietnamese about all the
air-battles between the US
and Vietnamese and had
detailed descriptions of
each one (at least as
detailed as he could get)
from combing through tons of
official records in Hanoi,
American military libraries
and books authored by
credible American and
foreign writers, as well as
personal interviews. It was
interesting to have him read
about both of my encounters
with Mig-21s to me. The one
intercepting van Cuong was
sketchy but factual and the
one which told how Hoang
Quoc Dung (pronounced Zoong)
intercepted me was virtually
the same as which Zoong had
told me—but it was a lie.
Zoong told both Lien and me
that he climbed to about
15,000 feet while heading
south to meet us then after
sighting me he swooped down
to my six (behind me) and
smoked me with an Atoll, a
heat-seeker missile. I knew
it was a lie because the
Vietnam Airlines AirBus
captain who took Jerry and
me back to Hanoi in 2006
knew Zoong personally and he
told us what really
happened. The truth was
that Zoong came at me from
a head-on intercept, flying
under the almost solid
undercast, then did an
Immelmann up to my six
o’clock and shot me. I’d
told people for years that a
2nd Lieutenant on his
familiarization-two flight
could have shot me down for
all the degree of difficulty
it was. My flight-leader,
the most exalted
fighter-pilot the navy had
ever known, led us right
into a trap and handed us to
the Zoong on a silver
platter. Anyway, after that
“personal” session with Lien
he opened the afternoon
session and did a great job
of translating the
interesting facts of the
fights.
Before he started the
translations Lien took the
time and made a special
effort to emphasize that
“Now we can finally tell the
truth…all the records in
Vietnam have been opened and
studied for the facts and
the truth is now exposed.
From now on we will finally
tell only the truth”.
I found that to be
interesting because it
tacitly admitted that they
had been lying in the
past…or at least evading or
hiding the truth. That also
made me wonder why Zoong had
lied to us about how he shot
me down.
One revealing, and at the
same time funny, story was
about the lone kill the US
got with a Talos missile.
The C.O. of the USS Chicago
forty years ago has wanted
to know for years if the one
Talos he fired brought down
the entire flight of four
Mig-17s he was shooting at
that day in May 1972. I’m
thinking it was the 12th.
The answer is NO, it brought
down only ONE Mig; and the
guy who it brought down told
the story. He was on his
very first mission after
becoming combat qualified in
the Mig-17 and he was #2 in
a “loose” flight of four.
They were at about 18,000
feet south of Hanoi and
headed south. His lead gave
him a signal to cross-over
to the opposite side of the
formation and he did. Just
seconds after he did, the
missile exploded, tearing
his Mig to small pieces. To
say the least, he was VERY
surprised but ejected
successfully. Later, after
meeting up with his leader
again he accused him of
knowing the missile was
coming and had crossed him
over in order that the
missile would guide on him
instead of the leader. We
all got a big laugh out of
that.
An other interesting snippet
was that the North Koreans
had asked the Vietnamese if
they could send some pilots
to fly with them so they
could get some experience
fighting Americans. Yes,
but the Koreans had to be
under the Viets’ control and
fly according to their
doctrine. Originally the
Koreans sent 16 pilots then
sent more later, and the
Koreans did indeed fly
against the US. There was
no mention of a Korean ever
shooting an American down,
but there is a monument to
deceased flyers in Hanoi and
there are 20 North Koreans
listed on it. I wonder if
Kim Jung Un knows about that
monument…..?
NO RUSSIANS EVER FOUGHT
AGAINST US. The Russians
sent instructors to Hanoi
and they did fly
instructional flights, but
none ever flew in combat.
It was against Ho Chi Minh’s
wishes to get the Russians
involved in actual combat.
They DID provide all the
Mig-21s the Vietnamese flew
but they didn’t actually
fight against us…except
once! They didn’t say where
it took place—Kep, Phuc Yen
or Yen Bai, but here’s the
story:
One of the Viet’s best
pilots had been injured, or
had been sick, and he was
grounded for a while. When
it came time for him to “get
back in the saddle” he was
paired with a Russian
instructor to fly an unarmed
two-seat Mig-21 to refresh
his skills. Shortly after
they took off they were
jumped by two USAF Phantoms
and the Russian was having a
terrible time trying to
defend against the two
Phantoms. The Viet pilot
was an accomplished combat
pilot and took control of
the plane. He masterfully
evaded both the Phantoms
until (I guess) the F-4s got
so low on fuel they had to
knock it off and departed
the area. The Mig pilot
landed the 21 and when they
got on the ground the
Russian instructor was
“shaking like a leaf”. He
told the Viet pilot “Alright
then, you saved my life, so
come on over to my place and
I will give you some
VODKA!!!!!!” BIG LAUGHS
again by both the Viets and
the US crews. That is the
only recorded time any
Russian did air-battle with
an American.
A similar story was that one
day the US attacked one of
the Migs’ air fields. A 21
pilot went up against them
and stayed engaged until the
Americans departed. By the
time the fights were over
and the Americans were gone
the Mig pilot realized he
was out of gas and wouldn’t
have enough gas to fly a
regular approach and
landing. So he just flew
right back to directly
overhead the field and
ejected.
Another big laugh-getter was
a short story by one of the
Viets. He said that he had
barely gotten into combat
when on one of his very
first missions he had been
shot down. He said he was
angry at the American pilot
who embarrassed him by
bagging him until he
realized the truth of the
situation. After a lot of
thought he was able to
adequately mentally insult
the unknown pilot. He said
he was finally able to
imagine saying to the
American, “OK, big deal,
congratulations, that was a
big accomplishment. You
managed to shoot-down a
private pilot”.
There was one Mig-19 pilot
in their group, Lt.Col.
Phùng Văn Quảng. He had only
one kill and nobody there
had fought a 19 so Quang
gave us a brief on the 19.
He said it was grossly
underpowered and on a hot
day they had to turn it into
the wind to help get it
started. He said he had a
couple of occasions to chase
Phantoms and F-105s out of
the Hanoi area but he could
never catch up to them—-he
could never close the gap.
He seemed a little
embarrassed to be a 19
pilot. He said all the 19s
came from Russia except one
which they got from China.
And if I heard it correctly,
all the Mig-17s the Viets
flew came from China too.
A lot of the afternoon was
taken up by an interview
with Lt General Pham Phu
Thai, a four-kill Mig-21
driver. He was very animated
and smiled a lot and was
told a good story. He had
been the Chief of Staff of
the Viet Air Force at one
time as was in on a lot of
the “big thinking”. He said
at one time too many Viet
pilots were claiming kills
which they could not
substantiate. So, in order
to keep the pilots honest,
if they claimed a kill their
bosses told the pilots to
“bring me the tail of the
airplane”. They literally
had to get a piece of the
plane they’d shot down. He
said after they made that
rule the claims died down a
lot.
I told LtGen Thai that we
Americans did tours in
southeast Asia then returned
home, but the Viet pilots
were at home and stayed at
home. I asked him if he had
stopped counting missions or
if he knew how many he’d
flown, expecting to hear a
sum of several hundred. To
my surprise he said he’d
flown only 215 missions. I
asked about engagements and
he said he’d had 25
engagements, only 20 of
which he would consider true
dogfights. I had 334
missions in three cruises,
so I still don’t understand
the reason for the big
difference in numbers. I
did not get to talk to Thai
again or I would have asked
him to ‘splain….
Someone asked Thai who the
Viets preferred to fight,
the USAF or the NAVY. He was
ever the diplomat and said
they preferred the USAF as
(1) they had to fly a long
time from Thailand in order
to get to targets in Vietnam
so hopefully they were tired
when they got there, (2)
they brought a LOT of
airplanes with them which
provided more to pick-on,
and (3) they stayed in the
area longer providing more
opportunities for fights. He
said the navy just came
screaming in, did their
bombing job and dashed back
out across the coastline to
the safety of the water…much
better chance for a rescue
in case the plane went down.
He also said a navy plane
going down in the water
“made it a lot harder to get
the tail of the airplane”.
BIG LAUGH there. At the end
of his talk, in whispered
tones from the corner of his
mouth, he also said, “Navy
more difficult”.
During another brief
interview, a Viet pilot said
his most dreaded adversary
was the navy F-8 Crusader,
that it was the hardest to
fight against as it had a
gun. That made me wonder if
the era the Mig pilot
referred to was before TOP
GUN came along.
FLASH BACK: During that
first meeting back in Hanoi
one of the navy guys had
asked the question of the
most senior officer in the
group, himself a six-kill
Mig-21 pilot, Lt General
Nguyễn Đức Soát, (pronounced
“Swat”) who were the better
adversaries, the USAF or the
NAVY. Soat gave a diplomatic
answer too, but while the
group was laughing or
otherwise distracted, he
whispered to the questioner,
“I think we both know the
answer to that”.
After that session there was
a three-hour break before
the “From Dogfights to
Detante” night on the USS
Midway Museum and another
long Q & A session for the
public. I’d had enough by
3:30 so I took the rest of
that day off and rejoined
them around noon the next
day at MCAS Miramar for the
air show.
The commanding general of
the Third Marine Air Wing,
Major General Wise and CO of
the air station, Colonel
Woodward, invited the Viets
and their hosts to watch the
air show in the “BIG TENT”.
I had been invited by the
CO, Marine Air Group Eleven,
Colonel Simon “Simple”
Doran, a long-time and
highly valued friend, to do
the same. There were plenty
of tables with programs and
there was a delicious buffet
set up and a bar complete
with beer, wine and whiskey,
and a photo booth for
souvenir photographs. They
also had a huge tub of
vanilla ice cream with a
myriad of toppings for
dessert. The Viets were all
over, most of them sporting
TOP GUN ball caps which
Cunningham had given them,
and they were scurrying back
and forth to get good views
of the airplanes and the
jet-powered truck. Bob
Jeffery and one of his
side-kick pals from his Viet
squadron days was there and
I explained basic
differences in US
Navy/Marine Corps and US Air
Force
philosophy/policy/doctrine/viewpoints/ways
of doing things to them.
They both understood our
ways but found it hard to
believe and accept.
When the Blues took off the
Viets were all eyes to the
skies and you could see by
their smiles and gestures
that some of them were
flying right along with the
Blues. I sat with Lt Gen
Nguyễn Kim Cách another
six-kill Mig-21 pilot and I
pointed out to him the tail
hooks down on the F-18s as
they came by inverted or
during the dirty loop, and I
gestured to him that I
snubbed my nose at the USAF
guys in the tent. He
understood and we laughed.
He was a charming fellow and
I decided that from his
stories the day before and
his animated conduct now he
was the most mischievous of
all the Viets.
After the air show—around
5—we went over to the O-Club
and Bob and his pal were
once again “wowed”. Bob
said he’d never seen an
O-Club like that before. I
told him there were none. I
saw retired Lt General Tom
Conant who had been the
Commanding General of the
Third Marine Air Wing at
Miramar a few years back and
who is now working for
Lockheed Martin in the F-35
program. It was GREAT to see
Tom again after about
six-seven years and he
invited us to fly the F-35
simulator they had set up in
the club’s dining room. I
told Tom that Bob had been
cooped up in Hanoi for 7+
years so I’d really like to
see Bob fly it. Bob flew
it. He liked it, but he
claims he just FORGOT to try
for a carrier trap. Heh-Heh…..Sure…
I took Bob into the WOXOF
room (a bar) and he could
hardly believe the decor.
The Marines have made it
look like a bunker compete
with one wall of sand bags
and large, carved wooden
plaques displayed all over
the place (each time a
Marine squadron goes on
cruise they have a plaque
made which depicts their
squadron and its theme,
mission and personnel). We
had a grand time reuniting
with old friends and around
six the Viets showed up and
a few minutes later the
Blues showed up. They had a
mutual-friends-society
back-slapping session in one
of the back rooms then they
all came out to have some
libations in the main bar
and on the back patio—both
of which were packed! I met
the incoming BOSS of the
Blues, Commander Eric
“Popeye” Doyle, a long-time
and close friend of
Simple’s, and I took the
opportunity to give him some
learned advice on leading
the Blues next year; I told
him to not F it up! He said
that was the best advise he
had gotten so far and I told
him I normally gave out
advice too younger and
lesser experienced
aviators…and there wasn’t
even a charge for it. He
looked at me kinda funny.
The Viets left and the Blues
mingled and I drank
two-three-seven too many
more Jack ’n Cokes and kept
schmoozing,
then around 9:30 I left
too…and I sure was glad I
had a designated driver.
I thoroughly enjoyed both
the days I spent with the
Mig drivers and the events
were well planned and
superbly executed…the host
aircrew did great jobs
making things happen “behind
the scenes”. I must mention,
however, that our pal
Jack—Fingers—One Gun—Ensch
seemed to do the
heavy-lifting because he was
everywhere at one time. I
didn’t see him much but
every time I looked up I
could tell he’ d been there
because I could see his
smoke. He was in and out of
minimum burner the whole
time, darting all over the
place assuring that things
were going as intended and
on schedule. At one point I
did hear him say the day at
the Miramar air show
reminded him of taking the
kids to Disneyland. I
suspect Jack’s work and
“attention to detail” was
the primary cause the event
went so well and was so much
fun for the rest of us. Just
like 44 years ago in Hanoi,
Jack’s great personality and
sense of humor made it a lot
easier—-not
fun—-but a lot easier—-for
us to be there.
Well, we’re over east Texas
or Louisiana now and my
memory—-and my fingers—-are
about exhausted. I wish
more of my old squadron
mates, the Fighter Squadron
143 Pukin’ Dogs, would have
come to that interesting and
“awesome” meeting with our
former enemies, but they
didn’t. I also wish they
had come to the O-Club for
reunions with some of our
old navy buddies (I saw
several from the two reserve
F-4 squadrons at Miramar in
the early ‘70s) but they
didn’t. I felt very selfish
having all that fun to share
with only Bob Jeffrey, but I
just soldiered on and
endured it.
That meeting with the Mig
pilots made me think of when
Jerry Morris and I went back
to Hanoi that second time in
2006 when we had that
terrific
experience of meeting with
Hoang Quoc Dung: it was
surreal. This meeting was a
lot more fun since we got to
do more than just talk and
it was a lot more laughs
with 13 of them. It felt
GREAT to have a kind of
“cathartic experience” with
Zoong and it was really fun
to watch the other Americans
in the group as they
intermingled and
interrelated with the
Vietnamese. All our
exchanges were cautiously
friendly and respectful,
although you could tell
there was that ever-present
“fighter pilot playfulness”
and people felt free to joke
and tease each other a
little and laugh a lot. If
anyone reading this has an
opportunity to mix with some
former Vietnamese enemies I
highly recommend you meet
them and get to know them
and have fun with them…they
aren’t our enemies any more…
Jaybee Souder….somewhere in
the free skies above the
USA…
1. Lt.Gen. Nguyễn Đức Soát
MiG-21 6 victories
2. Sen.Col. Nguyễn Văn Bảy
MiG-17 7 victories
3. Sen. Col Lê Thanh Đạo
MiG-21 6victories
4. Lt.Gen. Phạm Phú Thái
MiG-21 4 victories
5. Sen. Col. Ha Quang Hung
MiG-21
6. Sen.Col. Nguyễn Thanh Qúy
MiG-21
7. Lt.Col. Phùng Văn Quảng
MiG-19 1 victory
9. Lt.Col. Nguyễn Sỹ Hưng
MiG-21
10. Lt.Gen. Nguyễn Kim Cách
MiG-21 6 victories
11.Sen. Col. Lữ Thông MiG
17/21
12 Lt.Col. Vũ Phi Hùng 921st
Fighter Regiment
13. Mr. Nguyễn Nam Liên
910th Fighter
Regiment—Interpreter
1. Curt Dose’ USN F-4J, 1
victory
2. Jack Ensch USN F-4B, RIO,
POW, 2 victories, 1 loss
3. Rick Hartnack USMC F-4B
4. Jim Hoogerwerf USAF
C-130B, TAC Airlift
5. Clint Johnson USN A-1,
1 victory
7. Pete Pettigrew USN F-4J,
1 victory
8. Dave Skilling USAF F-100,
Misty FAC
9. Charlie Tutt USMC F-4B
-
Winston Copeland USN F-4N, 1
victory
-
Denny Wisely USN, 1 victory
-
Jaybee Souder USN RIO, POW (the
only one there to win 1, lose 1)
4. John Cerak USAF F-4
pilot, POW1 loss
5. Tom Hanton USAF F-4 WSO,
POW 1 loss
6. Chuck Jackson USAF F-4,
POW 1 loss
7. Bob Jeffery USAF F-4,
POW 7&1/2 years
9.
Matt Connelly USN F-4J, 2
victories
