X: What was your job there?
Which duties did you have to
perform there?
Thorsness: I was a pilot there also just
as, it was an air base, and I
was a pilot, the same as I
was when I was captured, the
pilot of a 105,
sir.
X: Which forms of war were you
trained for in West Germany?
Thorsness: In West Germany we were
trained for, ah, well, for
all forms of war, I guess.
The 105 is capable of (clears
throat) Excuse me - of both
nuclear and conventional
deliveries of ordinance. And
we were trained for all types
of war, I think you could
say.
X: Did you also have maps in
your possession showing the
other territory of Germany,
the other part of Germany?
Thorsness: The other part being East
Germany? That was our local
flying area, so to speak. And
this is what we, this is what
I carried maps of, of course.
X: If a so-called X-day, that is
if a dangerous situation and
arisen, during your
assignment in West Germany,
and you had been given
targets in East Germany to
attack, cities such as
Leipzig, Rostock, or
Magdeburg - would you have
flown?
Thorsness: Would I have flown to East
Germany had a war broken out?
Yes, sir, that was one of the
reasons, of course, we were
in West Germany was the
protection under NATO, of the
West Germany and all the NATO
countries and had a war
broken out between the
communist bloc, East Germany,
Russians, and so on. That was
of course why we were there
was to defend the NATO, the
NATO organisation, the NATO
countries.
128.
Duart declares: X: Major Duart, how was it
actually during the time your
were stationed in West
Germany? Were you in
possession of maps and other
material about the other part
of Germany? Do you know the
names of such cities as
Leipzig, Rostock, Magdeburg
and others?
Duart: During my tour in West
Germany, of course, our
military interests were on
the other side of the
so-called Iron Curtain. I do
not think that it's been a
long time, and
128.
Duart declares: X: Major Duart, how was it
actually during the time you
were stationed in West
Germany? Were you in
possession of maps and other
material about the other part
of Germany? Do you know the
names of such cities as
Leipzig, Rostock, Magdeburg
and others?
Duart: During my tour in West
Germany, of course, our
military interests were on
the other side of the
so-called Iron Curtain. I do
not think that, it's been a
long time, and I don't
remember wel l, and I don't
think that this is the place
to discover, I mean to
discuss what little I still
know possibly of the NATO
effort, and I think it is
evident to everybody that
the, shall we say, the
interest in case of any
conflict is obvious, the
other side of the Iron
Curtain.
129.
Photo-tableau Commentary: From 10 of the American
with the ten bomb droppers shot down
pilots in Vietnam -
129a.
The four are four did their "job" as NATO
optically pilots in West Germany -
highlighted prepared there too to give
their last, their worst -
129b.
Close-up as Major Duart and Thorsness
photos of admitted to us without
blinking an eye.
130.
Duart declares: X: Major Duart, you mentioned
before that the interests of
the NATO forces in West
Germany lie behind the "iron
curtain", to use your words.
If you had been given orders
to fly into the socialist
countries with nuclear
weapons on board, would you
have done so?
Duart: Yes, sir. I think that the
situation would most
certainly be different than
here, in Europe,
but my duty would be to obey
orders, yes sir.
131.
Thorsness declares: X: Major Thorsness, would you
have installed
nuclear warheads on your
rockets, if you had been
ordered to do so?
Thorsness: Warheads?
X: Did you have nuclear weapons
on board your plane?
Thorsness: The airplane, yes, sir, was
capable of carrying atomic
weapons, yes, sir. The 105 is
capable of carrying atomic
weapons.
X: During your period in West
Germany did you also go on a
trip to Berlin?
Thorsness: Yes, I did visit Berlin, sir.
X: What did you see there?
Thorsness: We saw, ah, we went to the
standard tourist attractions,
ah, Kaiser-Wilhelm Church,
the new church, the old
church and had some very good
food, ah, and visited East
Berlin as well as West
Berlin, took a tour, a
military tour, ah, primarily
we were just a tourist
although it was very
interesting.
132.
Americans on Author's This is how they are
guided tour Commentary: often seen, as they through
Democratic Berlin ride thorugh our capital with
harmless faces: friendly,
prepared to smile. That's
right, they are members of
imperialist armed forces; but
don't they look like you and
I? Viewing such scenes, we
would hardly have thought
that THIS; that this type of
tourist who today is walking
around amoung us --
133.
Pilots climb into could climb into their
planes in Vietnam airplanes tomorrow somewhere
in South East Asia, to drop
bombs on Vietnam.
134.
Americans on They are nice to look at, the
Berlin tour way they take snapshots there
with their cameras, they
appear clean --
135.
Pilots in cockpits, but the dirty warrior is
embodied in each of bombs are
fused them, because they are
involved in a dirty business,
and are the functioning
element - whether they do
their job with enthusiasm or
not.
136.
Torkelson declares: Torkelson: Ah well, I wasn't
particularly happy about it,
but I have a job to do in the
military and this was my
assignment and I follow and
obey orders of the military
which I am a member of.
137.
Photo: Adolf Commentary: SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Adolf
Eichmann Eichmann -- for the "final
solution of the Jewish
problem" he organised the
liquidation of six million
Jews.
138.
Hubbard declares: Hubbard: Well, I've been in the
military for quite a long
while and I am under an
obligation to obey the orders
of my commanders and I
received orders to come to
South East Asia and it never
even entered my mind to
reject them or to oppose them
or anything else, I just
accepted them.
X: In our opinion your
standpoint makes possible the
deat of guiltless people,
because you blindly follow
orders.
Hubbard: Well, yes, sir, that's, as a
professional military man
that's how I feel, or felt.
139.
Photo: Demonstration Commentary: Anti-Vietnam-War
with Eichmann placard demonstrators in onstration
with Washington. On their
posters, "I only followed
orders - Eichmann".
140.
Ringsdorf declares: Ringsdorf: I think that is a duty; if
you are in the military you
obey your orders I can't say
that I understood fully the
whole situation, I can't say
that I understand it now, but
I feel that it is the duty of
a military officer, you carry
out your orders you may not
understand exactly what they
are, but you do it.
141.
Button with head Commentary: Buttons worn by American
of Eichmann opponents of the Vietnam war:
"I Only Following Orders -
Eichmann".
142.
Duart declares: X: Then you simply carried out
your orders without thinking
why or against what you were
being used. This was
secondary for you, or maybe
not even interesting at all.
You just unconditionally
carried out your orders?
143.
Captain Noyd Commentary: This Air Force officer had
leaves courthouse, enough courage to say NO.
gets into car Captain Dale Noyd refused to
train student pilot for the
war in Vietnam. His reason:
"I am prepared to fight in
every war in which the United
States is attacked. But in
Vietnam this not the case".
Captain Noyd is facing
court-martial, but his
standpoint is food for
thought.
144.
Shively declares: X: Was the attitude of those
people talked about at the
Air Force Base? Was this
question discussed or talked
about?
Shively: Not a whole lot, sir. We
sometimes discuss it. Mainly
our discussions centered on
the fact that they were
hurting the war effort,
prolonging the war, because
we felt that the kind of war
we are fighting here is not
essentially a test of
strength, but is a kind of a
test of determination, and
that by people in the United
States demonstrating,
refusing to go to Vietnam it
indicates to the other side
that perhaps our
determination is not that
strong. That was our, the way
we discussed it, sir.
145.
Anti-Vietnam war Commentary: The determination to bring
demonstrators the Vietnam war to an end is
march to Pentagon also growing in the United
States. Anti-war
demonstrators. Their
destination: The Pentagon in
Washington.
146.
Fighting between - Music -
demonstrators and
Military Police at Pentagon
147. Photo: Commentary: David Summers -
148. Photo: Michael Johnson -
149.
Photo: Dennis Mora -
150.
Three photos They are presently serving
together long prison sentences because
they refused to fight
against the Vietnamese
people.
151.
Abbott declares: X: What is your opinion of these
three American citizens who
refused to go to Vietnam and
chose to go to prison
instead?
Abbott: I don't know what their
reason was, but they are free
to do that and express an
opinion not to go, but they
also have to receive the
punishment for not going.
X: Who do you think is now more
free in conscience? The three
who said: "we are not
participating in this dirty
war", those are the words of
the three, or those like you,
who went to war and who are
now also not exactly the
freest?
Abbott: No, I'm not free; I hope some
day I will be. However these
people aren't free either,
they may be perhaps in their
minds feel that they do the
right thing, but they
disobeyed the whole idea of
our country, of our concept
of our country. We will fight
for our country by the order
of our President. No, I am
not free and I was not free
when I was in Thailand
either. I was under a
military system. Howe ver, I
feel that I have served my
country and, whether it be
right or wrong, I have done
my duty and these people have
not.
152.
Planes dropping Commentary: Right or wrong - he "only
bombs did his duty". For all of the
air pirates interviewed
loyalty is an empty formula,
needed by them to appease
occasional feelings of bad
conscience, because it
excuses everthing.
153.
Shot of Abbott And yet - in the situation
of captivity even
First Lieutenant Abbott
begins to reflect
about himself and his
actions.
154.
Facsimile of Commentary: First Lieutenant Abbott wrote
envelope of Abbott's this letter to his wife
letter Linda, in the United States.
155.
Trick: Photos of "If the bombing would cease,
Abbott, lines from the road to peace I'm sure
original letter jump would be opened. From there
forward this would lead to the end of
the war, and my return home
to you, Mom and Dad."
156.
Shot of Abbott Author's No officer would write words
Commentary: such as these if he believed
his superiours were on
victory street. First
Lieutenant Abbott wants peace
talks.
157.
Abbott declares: Abbott: Yes I'd like to see an end of
the conflict, of bombing and
peace negotiations to stop
this, say, as you call it,
the dirty war.
158.
Duart declares: X: Major Duart, how long do you
think you will have to wear
these pyjamas?
Duart: I have no idea how long I
will be foreced to
live in this country as a
prisoner, but I know
that I am alive and as long
as I am able to maintain hope
for the end of this war, ah,
ah, I think that I will be
taken care of.
X: Permit me to make a very
personal statement. Anyone
looking at you, with your
blue eyes, would get the
feeling you wouldn't hurt a
fly. But you are sitting in
front of us as a man who has
dropped cluster bombs on this
territory here, and in spite
of this speaks of his joy of
flying. I fear that with
people like you any kind of
war can be carried out, and I
would like to ask you in
conclusion a very serious
question: When the time comes
for you to take off this suit
of clothing what is your life
going to be like? What are
your plans for the future?
Duart: I hope that my country will
still have a use for me in
the service when I go back.
However, if they do not, I
will have to look for
something else to do. I can
always still fly but of
course now it will cost me
money when I have to do it on
my own. I am approaching the
age where I cannot easily get
a job with airlines and so
on. I may be able to stay on
for two or three more years
which I would certainly try
if I were not of any use in
the military. --- In any
case, how my life will
change, one thing that will
definitely change is that I
am going to spend more time
in church. I pray that there
would not be another war that
I would have to serve in.
158a.
Shot of Duart Author's In future, the US global
stratogies will probably have
to do without this man who
has expressed his distaste
of the war in Vietnam
in such a plain manner.
159.
Risner declares: And how does Colonel Risner
think about his future? This
man, who has such a long
military career behind him?
Risner: I say be like others. I don't
know, however, I have no
plans at this moment. My
plans for the future depend
on many things. Since, since
coming here as a captive I
have searched myself very
deeply, and, as I said
before, I have always been a
Christian, but I have learned
to know God as I did not know
him before and my future
depends a great deal on what
I feel that God wants me to
do. Whether it involves the
Air Force or not I don't
know.
X: Then you feel you have no
personal responsibility for
your destiny and place it in
the hands of higher powers.
Risner: That is correct. 160. Risner - Author's Risner will hardly be useful Cover photo of Commentary: again as the squadron "Time" commander in air pirates.
161. Fade-over to A "Fighting Cock"? Photo of Risner as prisoner No, not any more.
162. Shot of Torkelson Commentary: First Lieutenant Torkelson
163. Facsimile to his wife Merle of envelope
164.
Photos of Torkelson Voice of "Protesting and demonstrating
Torkelson: this war and talking to
people about the cruelty of
it would help to end it
sooner. I love you and miss
you, Toren."
165.
Shot of Torkelson Author's American prisoners of the
Commentary: Korean war were court
martialed for letters such as
these. It is very likely that
First Lieutenant Torkelson
will have to be struck from
the rolls of the Air Force.
166.
Shot of Hughes Lieutenant Colonel Hughes
also rejects Johnson
167.
Facsimile of when he writes to his wife:
envelope
168.
Photos of Hughes, Voice of "I would appreciate your
lines from letter jump Hughes: doing what you can to help
forward end this conflict. Most
affectionately, Jim and
Daddy."
169.
Thorsness declares: X: Major Thorsness, what plans
do you have for life after
this war has ended? What
would you like to do most of
all if some day you could
take off these pyjamas?
Thorsness: Well, I would like to, ah,
some day in the future, ah, I
am either going to be a, an
instructor in a high school
or a college. I think this
would be a very rewarding job
to teach children and if it,
if it's not that, then I
would like to be in politics.
I would like very much to be
a senator some day, or a
governor of a state, I would
like to be on the, on the
deciding end of United States
policy ra ther than on the
doing end, and I would like
very much to, to help form
United States policy, to have
a voice in forming United
States policy, other than
just as a voter. I would like
to be in the political field
itself.
170.
Shot of Thorsness Author's What policy would the
politician Thorsness
Commentary: want to conduct?
Would he follow Johnson's
line? Hardly.
171. For in a letter to his Facsimile of wife the Major wrote: envelope
172.
Photos of Thorsness, Voice of "Gaylee, speaking personally,
lines of letter Thorsness you may be able to get an
jump forward appointment to see either
Senator Skets from Iowa or
possibly Senator Symington;
and you pass on to them that
you, for one - and me -
would like to see this war
justly ended as soon as
possible. Prayerfully, yours
with love, Leo."
173.
Shot of Shively Commentary: First Lieutenant Shively
174. Facsimile of wrote to his parents in the envelope United States:
175.
Photos of Shively, Voice of "I pray daily for the end of
lines of letter jump Shively: the war and hope that you do
forward also. There are other ways in
which you can help to shorten
the war also, you can write
letters to our Senators and
Congressmen and to the
newspapers, expressing your
opposition to the US war on
Vietnam. Remember me in your
prayers. With love, Jim."
176.
Shively sits down Author's First Lieutenant Shively has
for interview, Commentary: had enough. It can hardly be
close-up of pilot's expected that he will ever
helmet put on his helmet again and
transform himself into a First Lieutenant Shively has
Thunderchief. had enough. I can hardly be
177.
Shot of Shively Has he also considered what
he will make of
his life some day?
178.
Shively declares Shively: Sir, that's a difficult
question. I'm sure that I
don't want to fly
combat again. I've had my
taste and not particularly
pleased with it. I think I
would like to live a quiet
life from now on, without
guns going off, being shot
at, living in a constant
day-to-day worry of will I
return tomorrow from a
mission. Probably, I've just
thought about this and felt
that maybe i't like to be an
apple-orchard farmer back in
my home state of
Washington, sir. Something
quiet and simple.
X: We wish you the best of luck
in this.
Shively: Thank you, sir.
179.
Planes shot down, Author's The end of the Thunderchiefs.
wrecks burning on Commentary: The end of a legend.
ground American superiority,
invincibility -
The bubble has burst.
180.
Issue for prisoners Anyone putting on these
in camp pyjamas also has time to
think.
181. A lot of time.
Room in "Hilton Hanoi"
Pan to map of Commentary: The former world policeman
world on wall in the Hilton Hanoi are also
permitted to study the world
maps hanging on the walls of
various cells - they are a
portion of Vietnam
development aid for
the educational system of
the United States.
182.
Hubbard declares: X: In the United States did you
- you and your family - ever
feel personnally threatened
by the Vietnamese people?
Hubbard: No, sir, I never, I wasn't
even real sure where Vietnam
was until I got my orders to
come over here and I took my
world book out and lo
oked it up to see exactly
where I was going.
Commentary: This First Lieutenant of the
U.S. Air Force didn't even
know where Vietnam was.
183.
Captain Bay speaking. - Original sound Vietnamese -
German subtitles: On 26 April, 1966, I shot
down a Phantom
On April 29th a Thunderchief
On September the 9th another
Phantom
On September the 16th still
another
On 21 Jan. 1967 another
Thunderchief
On 24 April the next Phantom
and 5 days later another
Phantom.
Author's Seven shot down. Seven
Commentary: victories. Seven times honest
work, seven times the same
feeling of pride the bridge
builder has after completing
his work.
184.
Captain Bay and other Captain Bay was worthy of
pilots with flowers the flowers he received from
President Ho Chi Minh, which
grow on the top soil,
185.
Soldiers with flowers on the holy land, from which
at missile a small people draws its
great strength. Vietnam -
here the words of the German
poet Holderlin are becoming
living reality that the just
ones wield their swords like
magicians.
186.
Missile position At the time of our visit the
regiment of which this rocket
unit is a member had already
shot down 30 air pirates. One
of them, who - as the saying
goes, fell out of the clouds
- was
187.
Shot of Hubbard: First Lieutenant Hubbard, the
unpolitical
American elite-officer....
188.
Hubbard declares: X: Are you interested in
political affairs now,
based on your present day
experiences?
Hubbard: Well, since I'm here I would
be, much more than I ever was
before, yes, sir. I think
when I get out of here I will
probably take a much greater
interest in things that I
felt before were not my main
interest.
X: How long do you think you
will have to
wear those pyjamas?
Hubbard: I am looking forward to
getting out of them sometime
in the summer or fall of
1969.
X: How did you figure this date
out?
Hubbard: Well the only thing I can
base it on is if in the
election next year in
November of 68 there's a new
president elected and if his
feelings are strong enough
against the war or his stand
is such that he ends the war,
I'm assuming that it will end
similar to the way Korea did
approximately a year after a
change in administration.
189.
Shot of Hubbard Author's Edward Lee Hubbard hopes
Commentary: for a new President......and
expresses thereby the hopes
190.
Shot of Hubbard of numerous pilots in pyjamas
moves back into
tableau of all pilots These men wrote a camp song
shown in film for themselves, which is sure
to turn the ears of
the global strategists in
Washington red; as a
rejection, as the funeral
march of a defeated policy.
191.
Montage: - Music -
Illustration of song,
German subtitles Song: Original sound English
jump forward
191a.
Plane shot down When I crashed in the Red
River Valley
191b.
Plane shot down My jet had been hit by a SAM.
191c. Vietnamese militia I was captured by a running posse of peasants,
191d - f.
Pilot is led away And my life as a prisoner
began.
Pilot is led away But tied and led off to their
village,
Pilot is led away I was praying and feared for
my life.
191g.
Wounded pilot I was doctored and fed by
their
191h.
Pilot is bandaged Just as though I had caused
no strife.
191j. Pilot carried to camp I have moved to the Hanoi in ox-cart Hilton
191k. same as j. With its
191l.
Issue for prisoners New clothes, twin blanket and
toothpast
191m.
Prisoners get meal Hot soup, good rice from the
cooks.
191n.
Reading room As I study and read up their
history
191o.
Vietnamese pilot in Their long struggle for
cockpit unity and peace
191p.
Militia men Their high hope and great
plan for the future,
191r - t.
Vietnamese landscape I pray that this war will
soon cease.
Vietnamese landscape Some day when the peace talks
have ended
Vietnamese landscape I'll return to the ones I
love dear.
191u.
Peasants harvesting rice I'll remember this Red River
Valley
191v.
Peasants harvesting rice and it's people, who live
peacefully there.
192. Photos of the ten pilots, - Song whistled - zooming back
193. People's militia - Music - flak MG unit
Credit titles PILOTS IN PYJAMAS
jump forward 4
The Thunderchiefs
Ein Film von Heynowski & Scheumann
Kamera:
Hans Leupold
Gerhard Munch
Peter Hellmich
Fotos:
Thomas Billhardt
Montage:
Traute Wischnewski
Spezialaufnahmen:
Horst Donth
Peter Voigt
Rodaktion:
Gert Prokop
Peter Petersen
Sprecher:
Herwart Grosse
Dometscher:
Perry Friedman
Ubersetzung aus dem Amerikanischen:
Dr. Gunter Walch
Dr. Ernst Adler
Billy Mullis
Synchronisation:
Ernst Dahle
Wolfgang Kruger
Ton:
Hans-Jurgen Mittag
Musik:
Reiner Bredemeyer
Produktionsleitung:
Walter Martsch
Jochen Stoff
IM AUFTRAGE DES DEUTSCHEN
FERNSEHFUNKS HERGESTELLT IM
DEFA-STUDIO FUR WOCHENSCHAU
UND DOKUMENTAR--FILME UND IM
DEFA-STUDIO FUR SYNCHRONISATION